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	<title>Comments on: Are You A Damned Liar Too?</title>
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	<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/</link>
	<description>A Contrarian View of Life in the Recruitosphere</description>
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		<title>By: Amitai Givertz’s Recruitomatic Blog: Vote for Me, Argentina</title>
		<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/comment-page-1/#comment-212</link>
		<dc:creator>Amitai Givertz’s Recruitomatic Blog: Vote for Me, Argentina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://recruitomatic.amitaigivertz.com/?p=65#comment-212</guid>
		<description>[...] 8. Are You A Damned Liar Too? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 8. Are You A Damned Liar Too? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Karen M</title>
		<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/comment-page-1/#comment-211</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 18:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://recruitomatic.amitaigivertz.com/?p=65#comment-211</guid>
		<description>Please forgive my post.. but I meant NY not NJ.. where Spitezer - &quot;Frustrated that so many companies in New York State pay less than the minimum wage, Attorney General Eliot Spitzer announced a new strategy yesterday to attack the problem: sue the employment agencies that steer thousands of workers into these low-paying jobs each year&quot;
.
He has been very active in proceeding with several lawsuits against employment and recruiting firms this year alone also focusing on Discrimination issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please forgive my post.. but I meant NY not NJ.. where Spitezer &#8211; &#8220;Frustrated that so many companies in New York State pay less than the minimum wage, Attorney General Eliot Spitzer announced a new strategy yesterday to attack the problem: sue the employment agencies that steer thousands of workers into these low-paying jobs each year&#8221;<br />
.<br />
He has been very active in proceeding with several lawsuits against employment and recruiting firms this year alone also focusing on Discrimination issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen M</title>
		<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/comment-page-1/#comment-208</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://recruitomatic.amitaigivertz.com/?p=65#comment-208</guid>
		<description>Ami,
Yeah, wasn&#039;t there a game in school we used play - 10 kids in a line, whisper something in their ear, and by the time it got done the chain it was distorted?

You mentioned developing an ethical approach to business. In the recruiting industry there will always be a problem regarding ethics and standards, if there continues to be no barriers to entry. What I mean by barriers is Certification, accredidation, fees, something to retard entry.

Today, with the low barriers anyone, and I mean ANYONE can be a recruiter. All one needs is a pocket full of change, a telephone and presto, you can call yourself a recruiter. Gee, a license - feggetaboutit, education/knowledge about recruiting standards -feggeataboutit.

Recently I was joking, you know what the legal/mortgage/insurance/financial industries would be like without self regulation --- the recruiting industry..

Yes, I do come down on the industry and quite a bit. It is a shame that people can have so much power, and privvy to so much privacy information.. Yes, Ami, private information.. There are many of us who will get social security numbers as TPR&#039;s, and the staffing world, that of course is power of the course..

Yet, bring up conversations on ETHICS and LAWS in this industry, and gee, the Hammer will come down on you! All of a sudden you will be labled the Ethics police, the Detractor! Argument&#039;s are made about ethics are personal, subjective, objective..Yeah, I know, &#039;cause that hammer comes down hard on me, every time I push these topics..

I recently received an email from someone who mentioned that all they learnt from their boss was how to be unethical, to lie and be dishonest.. Yes, that is pretty much a form of many of the emails I recieve actually from people who are having problems sleeping at night, and want to learn a better way, but they don&#039;t know where to get that information.

Less than 3 percent of this industry belong an industry association Ami, and even less even know who our oldest and most noted associations are. Which means Ami, they came into this industry w/o being aware of the Standards of this industry. The standards which promote ethical welfare, goodwill to themselves, other recruiters, and of course our clients and applicants.

This is indeed a good post, a great post, and as Maureen Said, many will be scared of approaching, because they themselves don&#039;t want that Hammer to come down on them.. gee, who wants to go through the Hell that I went through last year..

Granted, I put myself through that by continuing to push the postion on knowledge of education, laws, and standards in this industry. I will continue to do so, because I stand my ground, this industry needs to be SELF Regulated.. (no that Does NOT mean Government Regulated. I don&#039;t condone government regulation. Too expensive, and darn if a government official can understand what I do each day! sure won&#039;t want them to tell me how to manage my business)

This industry needs an enema.. for sure! Higher barrier to entry - education and testing should be a requisite.. and by george some type of licensing number, and for goodness sake a board of ethics... and if we don&#039;t do it ourselves, well the Government may just come back and do it for us Again.. (NJ is already trying to cleanse there)

Ah, I ramble as usual, but this is my hot button Ami.. it is as I watch people disregard the word Privacy, confidential, and believe that it is a second nature to lie, and damage reputations, trust, and bring disorder into companies or peoples lives.. All for the mighty dollar.

I close with this.. my husband joked one day and said a man can be killed in America for 100 bucks, get the job done well for 1000, well he said what do you think a person would do for the average fee of a recruiter.. 15-20K.. Especially if there is Nothing, or Anyone who is overseeing their actions?

I echo what Kyle said.. is there a solution? Can we discuss that then! &#039;cause the conversation of ethics in this industry hits walls.. big, high, thick concrete walls.. the same walls that the unethical behavior is driving us ethical individuals businesses into..

This is my truth, what is Yours?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ami,<br />
Yeah, wasn&#8217;t there a game in school we used play &#8211; 10 kids in a line, whisper something in their ear, and by the time it got done the chain it was distorted?</p>
<p>You mentioned developing an ethical approach to business. In the recruiting industry there will always be a problem regarding ethics and standards, if there continues to be no barriers to entry. What I mean by barriers is Certification, accredidation, fees, something to retard entry.</p>
<p>Today, with the low barriers anyone, and I mean ANYONE can be a recruiter. All one needs is a pocket full of change, a telephone and presto, you can call yourself a recruiter. Gee, a license &#8211; feggetaboutit, education/knowledge about recruiting standards -feggeataboutit.</p>
<p>Recently I was joking, you know what the legal/mortgage/insurance/financial industries would be like without self regulation &#8212; the recruiting industry..</p>
<p>Yes, I do come down on the industry and quite a bit. It is a shame that people can have so much power, and privvy to so much privacy information.. Yes, Ami, private information.. There are many of us who will get social security numbers as TPR&#8217;s, and the staffing world, that of course is power of the course..</p>
<p>Yet, bring up conversations on ETHICS and LAWS in this industry, and gee, the Hammer will come down on you! All of a sudden you will be labled the Ethics police, the Detractor! Argument&#8217;s are made about ethics are personal, subjective, objective..Yeah, I know, &#8217;cause that hammer comes down hard on me, every time I push these topics..</p>
<p>I recently received an email from someone who mentioned that all they learnt from their boss was how to be unethical, to lie and be dishonest.. Yes, that is pretty much a form of many of the emails I recieve actually from people who are having problems sleeping at night, and want to learn a better way, but they don&#8217;t know where to get that information.</p>
<p>Less than 3 percent of this industry belong an industry association Ami, and even less even know who our oldest and most noted associations are. Which means Ami, they came into this industry w/o being aware of the Standards of this industry. The standards which promote ethical welfare, goodwill to themselves, other recruiters, and of course our clients and applicants.</p>
<p>This is indeed a good post, a great post, and as Maureen Said, many will be scared of approaching, because they themselves don&#8217;t want that Hammer to come down on them.. gee, who wants to go through the Hell that I went through last year..</p>
<p>Granted, I put myself through that by continuing to push the postion on knowledge of education, laws, and standards in this industry. I will continue to do so, because I stand my ground, this industry needs to be SELF Regulated.. (no that Does NOT mean Government Regulated. I don&#8217;t condone government regulation. Too expensive, and darn if a government official can understand what I do each day! sure won&#8217;t want them to tell me how to manage my business)</p>
<p>This industry needs an enema.. for sure! Higher barrier to entry &#8211; education and testing should be a requisite.. and by george some type of licensing number, and for goodness sake a board of ethics&#8230; and if we don&#8217;t do it ourselves, well the Government may just come back and do it for us Again.. (NJ is already trying to cleanse there)</p>
<p>Ah, I ramble as usual, but this is my hot button Ami.. it is as I watch people disregard the word Privacy, confidential, and believe that it is a second nature to lie, and damage reputations, trust, and bring disorder into companies or peoples lives.. All for the mighty dollar.</p>
<p>I close with this.. my husband joked one day and said a man can be killed in America for 100 bucks, get the job done well for 1000, well he said what do you think a person would do for the average fee of a recruiter.. 15-20K.. Especially if there is Nothing, or Anyone who is overseeing their actions?</p>
<p>I echo what Kyle said.. is there a solution? Can we discuss that then! &#8217;cause the conversation of ethics in this industry hits walls.. big, high, thick concrete walls.. the same walls that the unethical behavior is driving us ethical individuals businesses into..</p>
<p>This is my truth, what is Yours?</p>
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		<title>By: Recruitomatic</title>
		<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/comment-page-1/#comment-207</link>
		<dc:creator>Recruitomatic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Sep 2006 11:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://recruitomatic.amitaigivertz.com/?p=65#comment-207</guid>
		<description>I love the way a thread can take on its own direction but when it goes off on a misreading of the post I guess at some point someone has to say, “Guys, could you be missing the point?”

I am not defending, rationalizing, justifying or promoting lying. I’m simply suggesting that until we can acknowledge that we do it, it happens, we may not be able to adopt a position of truthfulness in our dealings as a matter of course, as a matter of pride, in pursuit of excellence. I concede that it easier to lie when you realize it is just a default communications strategy – and it is – or a device for manipulation that we all carry around in our personal and professional tool box. It’s a part of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060515_why_lie.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;human biology&lt;/a&gt;. Coming to terms with this condition – as I suggest in the post – is a step in the right direction for developing an &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v6n1/lying.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ethical approach&lt;/a&gt; to business.

Amitai</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the way a thread can take on its own direction but when it goes off on a misreading of the post I guess at some point someone has to say, “Guys, could you be missing the point?”</p>
<p>I am not defending, rationalizing, justifying or promoting lying. I’m simply suggesting that until we can acknowledge that we do it, it happens, we may not be able to adopt a position of truthfulness in our dealings as a matter of course, as a matter of pride, in pursuit of excellence. I concede that it easier to lie when you realize it is just a default communications strategy – and it is – or a device for manipulation that we all carry around in our personal and professional tool box. It’s a part of <a href="http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060515_why_lie.html" rel="nofollow">human biology</a>. Coming to terms with this condition – as I suggest in the post – is a step in the right direction for developing an <a href="http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v6n1/lying.html" rel="nofollow">ethical approach</a> to business.</p>
<p>Amitai</p>
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		<title>By: Maureen Sharib</title>
		<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/comment-page-1/#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator>Maureen Sharib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://recruitomatic.amitaigivertz.com/?p=65#comment-209</guid>
		<description>Karen, I don&#039;t think lying is being advocated here as &quot;belonging&quot; in business - I think the idea that is being advanced here is that lying IS in business and it serves a function in business - whether people want to see it or not - it serves as a baseline for behavior and understanding its &quot;place&quot; and its ramifications are critically important.

Lying has its purpose - if only to show itself for what it is, and for what it is not.  &quot;Having a place&quot; and &quot;belonging&quot; are apples and oranges and construing the two words as meaning the same thing does not serve this discussion fairly.

You asked me to think about this...

Maureen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen, I don&#8217;t think lying is being advocated here as &#8220;belonging&#8221; in business &#8211; I think the idea that is being advanced here is that lying IS in business and it serves a function in business &#8211; whether people want to see it or not &#8211; it serves as a baseline for behavior and understanding its &#8220;place&#8221; and its ramifications are critically important.</p>
<p>Lying has its purpose &#8211; if only to show itself for what it is, and for what it is not.  &#8220;Having a place&#8221; and &#8220;belonging&#8221; are apples and oranges and construing the two words as meaning the same thing does not serve this discussion fairly.</p>
<p>You asked me to think about this&#8230;</p>
<p>Maureen</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/comment-page-1/#comment-205</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://recruitomatic.amitaigivertz.com/?p=65#comment-205</guid>
		<description>Fantastic point, Karen! I especially like the idea that &quot;recruiting is MORE than Sales&quot; because the effect is not on a wallet or on a corporate budget, but on individuals who have to live with the choices made because of a lie.

Thanks for not keeping your comments to yourself :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic point, Karen! I especially like the idea that &#8220;recruiting is MORE than Sales&#8221; because the effect is not on a wallet or on a corporate budget, but on individuals who have to live with the choices made because of a lie.</p>
<p>Thanks for not keeping your comments to yourself <img src='http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Karen M</title>
		<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/comment-page-1/#comment-206</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Sep 2006 17:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://recruitomatic.amitaigivertz.com/?p=65#comment-206</guid>
		<description>Okay, I have watched this for a while, and have kept my comments to myself. Many who know me will realize this is difficult.. but okay, I gotta say something.

There is indeed a difference between the harmless lie to help keep one&#039;s children innocent, or your friend happy from direct outright damaging or destructive misrepresentation business misrepresentation..

One can land you in federal courts the other may have someone giving you flowers and a kiss - with a thanks so much mommy..

Lying does not belong in business. In any shape way or form. Lying to candidates or clients doesn&#039;t just hurt your business, and reputation but can affect the lives of individuals and the welfare of companies.

One does Not EVER have to lie either to gain information, source, recruit, or any aspect of the Recruiting Process. I have never lied in my tenure as a recruiter. Okay, I take that back, tried it once on the suggestion of a friend, didn&#039;t like it, felt uncomfortable and ended up telling the truth..

Never understood the reasoning behind the ruse call when there are more legitimate ways to gain information.

Yes, Ami, this is great post, and does make one think, okay, so I fibbed to my kids.. but when I think of what I do for a living. How every call that I make can impact the life of an individual, their families lives... How the wrong candidate can hurt a company tremendously (Tyco comes to mind) then I realize that this job is MORE than Sales.. it is more than just presentation of Names on a piece of paper..

This job is about Humans, we deal with People, and I wonder if that is why there is a Human in Human Resources.. We have more power to destroy than we give ourselves credit for..

And for sure, lying does not belong in this industry.. Is there also any wonder that the FTC, BBB, and SBA all have pages set up on how to deal with Recruiters.. of all the industries in the world, they choose to have pages about Us..

Makes me think.. what about you..

Karen Mattonen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I have watched this for a while, and have kept my comments to myself. Many who know me will realize this is difficult.. but okay, I gotta say something.</p>
<p>There is indeed a difference between the harmless lie to help keep one&#8217;s children innocent, or your friend happy from direct outright damaging or destructive misrepresentation business misrepresentation..</p>
<p>One can land you in federal courts the other may have someone giving you flowers and a kiss &#8211; with a thanks so much mommy..</p>
<p>Lying does not belong in business. In any shape way or form. Lying to candidates or clients doesn&#8217;t just hurt your business, and reputation but can affect the lives of individuals and the welfare of companies.</p>
<p>One does Not EVER have to lie either to gain information, source, recruit, or any aspect of the Recruiting Process. I have never lied in my tenure as a recruiter. Okay, I take that back, tried it once on the suggestion of a friend, didn&#8217;t like it, felt uncomfortable and ended up telling the truth..</p>
<p>Never understood the reasoning behind the ruse call when there are more legitimate ways to gain information.</p>
<p>Yes, Ami, this is great post, and does make one think, okay, so I fibbed to my kids.. but when I think of what I do for a living. How every call that I make can impact the life of an individual, their families lives&#8230; How the wrong candidate can hurt a company tremendously (Tyco comes to mind) then I realize that this job is MORE than Sales.. it is more than just presentation of Names on a piece of paper..</p>
<p>This job is about Humans, we deal with People, and I wonder if that is why there is a Human in Human Resources.. We have more power to destroy than we give ourselves credit for..</p>
<p>And for sure, lying does not belong in this industry.. Is there also any wonder that the FTC, BBB, and SBA all have pages set up on how to deal with Recruiters.. of all the industries in the world, they choose to have pages about Us..</p>
<p>Makes me think.. what about you..</p>
<p>Karen Mattonen</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Goldberg</title>
		<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/comment-page-1/#comment-204</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Goldberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://recruitomatic.amitaigivertz.com/?p=65#comment-204</guid>
		<description>The only time we reach perfection in life is in a resume. Do we lie? To a purist yes. To me it&#039;s more you accent the positive down play the negative. As an example you don&#039;t say you work somewhere or had a title you didn&#039;t. But maybe you emphasize your role on a team. SO I tell the truth as I wish to remember it because telling a lie out of whole cloth is hard to keep straight.

Rich Goldberg
Lawrence Personnel
rgoldberg@lawrencepersonnel.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only time we reach perfection in life is in a resume. Do we lie? To a purist yes. To me it&#8217;s more you accent the positive down play the negative. As an example you don&#8217;t say you work somewhere or had a title you didn&#8217;t. But maybe you emphasize your role on a team. SO I tell the truth as I wish to remember it because telling a lie out of whole cloth is hard to keep straight.</p>
<p>Rich Goldberg<br />
Lawrence Personnel<br />
<a href="mailto:rgoldberg@lawrencepersonnel.com">rgoldberg@lawrencepersonnel.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bruce's Blog / links for 2006-09-08</title>
		<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/comment-page-1/#comment-210</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce's Blog / links for 2006-09-08</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Sep 2006 01:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://recruitomatic.amitaigivertz.com/?p=65#comment-210</guid>
		<description>[...] Are You A Damned Liar Too? « Amitai Givertz’s Recruitomatic Blog Lies, lies and damn lies (tags: lies principles ethics transparency integrity) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Are You A Damned Liar Too? « Amitai Givertz’s Recruitomatic Blog Lies, lies and damn lies (tags: lies principles ethics transparency integrity) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Recruitomatic</title>
		<link>http://blogversity.com/recruitomatic/2006/09/07/are-you-a-damned-liar-too-2/comment-page-1/#comment-203</link>
		<dc:creator>Recruitomatic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Sep 2006 01:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://recruitomatic.amitaigivertz.com/?p=65#comment-203</guid>
		<description>Kyle - is this a test?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kyle &#8211; is this a test?</p>
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